billb
Tester
Reged: Apr 24 2006
Posts: 5
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This a quick note to, as it states in the forums heading, provide “general feedback”. Maybe if it is written down then it will reach those who can make a difference. And maybe others will add their voices in agreement to give it more weight.
I once asked a support technician why Hi-Tech does not have a good library of example code, why there are no books on the market using it, and why they do not offer any training classes. The response was: "that it is not Hi-Tech’s responsibility to train you in how to program. Our efforts are in developing compilers…" I suggested that I might take our business elsewhere and the reply was that we should do as we please – this in a somewhat bemused tone.
My recommendation to Hi-Tech Software is that you had better take a page from Microsoft and learn that developers will make or break your company. Either you help them learn how to use your tool or they will go someplace else. And the market will follow. I have begun to look elsewhere as it is becoming difficult to find the time to morph other PIC C source files to work with PICC or PICC18.
I just spent an hour with two Microchip representatives who are eager for our business. Microchip only has C compilers for the PIC18F and higher series. Yet they are willing to provide training and extended support. I now have the phone numbers of four people who will help me with various tasks from product selection to coding. And though it might be a step back in capability I gain plenty of tested code and documentation. I have also looked briefly into CCS because it was mentioned on the forum as having 90 working examples. However my cursory examination has show that this compiler is not truly ANSI C compliant so it could raise portability issues if we ever migrate in the future. Thus I am still looking for a better compiler when I have the time.
I do not know the size of your company, but I strongly suggest that you take at least 1 FTE and have them create more “working” examples (not just code snippets as "proofs of concept"). Author a book. Call upon some of your better engineers and customers who have proven their ability through forum postings to provide content. Having your name in a published book goes a long way to garnering help. I would even be glad to review it and test the PIC examples provided I have the equipment. Have one or two of your best engineers and support people come up with the most asked questions. Use these as the bases for a class and show how to solve these problems using demo boards and the needed Hi-Tech C compiler. Post the code and recorded presentation for customers to view when they can. Add more classes as time permits.
The representatives from Microchip stated that Hi-Tech was invited to their Master’s Conference in Phoenix and Microchip never received a reply. That was one missed opportunity because I would have gone if Hi-Tech was there. How many more opportunities will you loose to help those using your product?
How many agree with what I have stated? Make your voice heard here, now, by speaking out!
Bill Buxton
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jtemples
Guru
Reged: Oct 16 2003
Posts: 1339
Loc: Southern California
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Quote:
why they do not offer any training classes.
What is it that you'd like to be trained on?
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The representatives from Microchip stated that Hi-Tech was invited to their Master’s Conference in Phoenix and Microchip never received a reply.
It seems odd that Microchip would list a course taught by Hi-Tech in the Master's listing without having had a reply from Hi-Tech.
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Mark Pappin
Reged: Nov 01 2004
Posts: 599
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Thanks for raising this issue here, Bill - your points are valid and will be looked at closely.
Quote:
I once asked [...] why they do not offer any training classes.
Now it's my turn to ask (Bill and others) in my bemused tone
- What specific topics would you like covered in a training class?
- How much would you pay for a hands-on in-person training class? $10 a day? $100 a day? $1000 a day?
- How far would you travel to attend such a class? Your city? Interstate? Australia?
- How much would you pay for individualized online training (e.g. by email) with detailed commentary and feedback about your code?
There will be tradeoffs - to run a class requires a certain amount of resources, and that amount increases as the class is located further from our base; and if we re-purpose resources that are currently allocated to compiler development then that compiler development work must necessarily be delayed. How much extra delay are you willing to accept before the next release of your compiler?
If you're willing to accept the tradeoff of being one step further removed from the compiler developers, it's quite likely that some of our Certified Consultants may be able to provide the training you need.
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The representatives from Microchip stated that Hi-Tech was invited to their Master’s Conference in Phoenix and Microchip never received a reply.
Which representatives told you that? We would honestly like to know, and Microchip probably would too, because we did run classes and
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That was one missed opportunity because I would have gone if Hi-Tech was there.
so the opportunity was missed by you. Jeff tells us that the classes he taught were well-received as they have been for the last 7 years that he's been teaching them.
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Mark Pappin - HI-TECH Software
Edited by Mark Pappin (Fri Sep 22 2006 01:16 AM)
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Dan Henry
Guru
Reged: Oct 16 2003
Posts: 3387
Loc: Boulder, Colorado U.S.A.
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Bill,
I voted "No" because I don't want or need those things. That said, I am definitely (forgive the double-negative) not entirely unsympathetic.
I can imagine that other vendors' toolchains that include a bunch of sample/library code may be popular with the hobbyist, researcher, prototyper, test jig designer, etc. that don't particularly want to fiddle about with the device details. They just want do do a one-off as quickly as possible.
I suppose it would be "better" if HI-TECH's toolchains had the equivalent, but I think that other vendors having all that is the exception rather than the rule. My bio here should suggest that I am a multi-platform kind of guy and although I have read and understand what you are saying, I view the situation from the perspective of a professional multi-platform product/firmware developer.
I am in no way suggesting that you are not professional, so don't get me wrong. By the way, are you are Bill Buxton, Principal Researcher at Microsoft?
Anyway, the processor list in my bio is a subset, but among those processors and the others not listed, I can recall only two of their toolchains I've used having the level of example/library code I think you are talking about -- the Rabbit and the MicroBlaze (Xilinx softcore processor). That's what I mean with my exception versus rule comment. For me, it is much more important to be able to count on language compliance, code quality, and reliability than to have examples/libraries, but that's just me. Side comment: Damned Rabbit Dynamic C anyway. With all that library code they threw in with their nonstandard C compiler, I ended up spending more time fighting the toolchain than the time saved by using their libraries (which I had to fight and fix bugs in too, by the way). But I digress.
I'd be interested to get a better understanding of your perspective, so could you clarify a few things for me? I'll use one thing you said to frame some questions:
Quote:
... it is becoming difficult to find the time to morph other PIC C source files to work with PICC or PICC18.
- Is this issue something that training would help or something that more example/library/driver code would help?
- If it's training, is there a different type of training than that currently offered that would be more helpful?
- What other compiler was this PIC C source written for?
- Is the morphing required because of naming differences or worse (e.g., #use, #fuse, #export, #import; that kind of thing)?
- Is the morphing something that could be automated using text processing tools?
-Dan Henry
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YT Lee
Reged: Oct 16 2003
Posts: 83
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My take on this subject is yes and no.
I believe Hi-Tech targets are professional because of the pricing. Hence, majority of the users are not interested in training for beginners. And I believe most of the users are in different fields, hence, it would be difficult to design an "advanced" class that fits everyone. Frankly, most of them are working alone or in small group. Spending time to attend a class that does not fit their immediate needs may be difficult.
Therefore, I really don't see a market for training. And my vote for Hi-Tech to setup a training is 'no'.
As for source and libraries, it never hurts to see other people's code. I may pick up a pointer or two.
For example, I picked up the MMC code from the other compiler vendor.
Therefore, my vote for source code & libraries is "yes".
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jeff
HI-TECH team member
Reged: Jun 27 2004
Posts: 421
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Quote:
The representatives from Microchip stated that Hi-Tech was invited to their Master’s Conference in Phoenix and Microchip never received a reply.
Hi Bill,
Sorry you missed the MASTERs. I have been presenting the HI-TECH class at MASTERs since 1999, I think it is -- time flies... I also know that we presented before this date as well so we are quite familiar with summer in Phoenix. :-)
No doubt there has been some mix up with the Microchip reps, but clearly such mix ups affect customers, as you have pointed out. We do put a huge amount of effort into the HI-TECH class and it is always very well received. We would like to ensure that this material reaches as many people as possible and so need to ensure that the relevant people are informed. If you can e-mail us who you were dealing with at Microchip that we would very much appreciate it.
I had been thinking about presenting similar material to interested parties, but we would need to determine the demand for such presentations before we could commit to them. Mark asked some questions to that effect and your response would be a first step in gauging customers' requirements.
As always, please contact us if you need any assistance with your HI-TECH products.
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Jeff O'Keefe
HI-TECH Software
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billb
Tester
Reged: Apr 24 2006
Posts: 5
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Hello all thank you for your responses.
In reply to jtemples, I am looking for training that is specific to my being able to program the PIC16F and PIC18F series of microcontrollers. I have not used Assembly in 20 years nor C, except for a few small projects, in about 12 years. So I would prefer a course that teaches me how to use Hi-Tech C (not CCS or C18) to program all features of a microcontroller. My current project concerns the USB port/device and drivers.
As for the Master’s Conference in Phoenix, I do not know why the comment was made by Tom D. and have emailed him for clarification. Should I have misconstrued what he said, I will apologize.
In reply to Mark Pappin, when I worked for larger companies I could spend $10,000 to $14,000 per year on training. Now I work for a small company in a vertical market and must justify the purchase of demo boards. However I think I could persuade them to pay $500 per day for a two to five day course that gave me hands-on and the opportunity to talk directly to those who have expertise. I would also like the training to occur regionally.
I am always open to online training as that would save my company the added costs of travel and room/board so I could more easily persuade management to purchase it. Costs for online training should be lower then in-person classes as facility fees and instructor traveling expenses would also be removed. It might also be possible to have those directly involved in the compiler development provide constructive feedback to the students.
And I am open to having certified consultants carry out the training so long as Hi-Tech Software confirms the course content and insures that said consultants adhere to it.
In response to Dan Henry, I do not know what you would consider a professional. Let me just state that this is my first position as a firmware developer. I hold a BS in EE specializing in digital and RF design. I also have minors in CS and Mathematics. And I have three AS degrees in Electronics, Avionic (Electro-Optical) Systems, and Business, Microcomputers.
Previously I worked as a technician (4 to 5 yrs), in Software Engineering (3 yrs) and since in IT (for 11 yrs). My current employer had me designing Instrumentation Software using LabVIEW in addition to being a 1-person IT department. Because of that success I have been allowed to pursue firmware development with the intent of improving our process development and documentation.
So I do not have the background or knowledge that you do with respect to Microcontrollers. Our company uses a single line of microprocessors (Microchip) in order to reduce complexity and speed manufacture. As our devices do not require complex I/O we have stayed away from higher end microcontrollers until my recent project with regards to USART and USB – using the PIC18F4550. I am used to programming with Visual Studio 6 or 4GL’s (Edify, Lotus Notes, Pivotal) that have thousands of users and books/examples, or an upgraded support tier – for an additional fee - to answer my questions no matter how trivial. This is not the case even with Microchip in the microcontroller world.
I have usually always taught myself what I needed to know and then taken courses to reinforce it. I could always turn to books, forums, peers, or the Internet to find answers if needed. This is not true with microcontrollers which seems to be somewhat of an obtuse art. So I try to find working code in other languages, learn from it what I need, and then morph it (or rewrite it) for Hi-Tech C. Thus I learn a) how to use the PIC feature/port correctly, and b) how the syntax should be coded for that feature. It would be nice if Hi-Tech already provided the source code and drivers so that I could reduce the duality of learning from multiple languages. That would be of the most help to me with respect to my duties as assigned.
In reply to YT Lee, it appears you are correct so I have some catch-up to do.
In reply to Jeff, thank you for your input and please see above.
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billb
Tester
Reged: Apr 24 2006
Posts: 5
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To all:
In my first post I said that “The representatives from Microchip stated that Hi-Tech was invited to their Master’s Conference in Phoenix and Microchip never received a reply.” I have since received clarification as to the statement made by Tom D., Microchip Sales Engineer:
“I don't recall saying anything in relation to Hi-tech and the Masters. I know that they attend Masters every year as a certified third party, but I haven't attended any of their Masters classes. I think I did mention something about the fact that the new regional training centers don't currently have any training for our third party partners but I expect that we will eventually have something from them. I don't use Hi-tech, but I have heard good things about their tools.”
Therefore I must offer my sincere apology for incorrectly recalling his comments and using them to show Hi-Tech Software in an unfavorable light.
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Mark Pappin
Reged: Nov 01 2004
Posts: 599
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
I am looking for training that is specific to my being able to program the PIC16F and PIC18F series of microcontrollers.
As YT Lee says, matching course to target audience is non-trivial: a beginners' course would likely have few takers among our customers (although I'm happy to be proved wrong - please, tell me via the poll at the bottom of this post), while each advanced user is specialized in their own direction.
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I would prefer a course that teaches me how to use Hi-Tech C ... to program all features of a microcontroller.
The minimal (and free) version of such a course is:- PIC microcontrollers use memory-mapped registers to control their features - details are in the datasheets.
Set or clear individual bits, write appropriate values into byte- or word-wide registers, and read bits/bytes/words as necessary.
- We provide pseudo-variables with (in most cases) names identical to those in Microchip's datasheets which map to the relevant registers.
Use plain old assignments in C, to and from these pseudo-variables, to access the hardware.
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I think I could persuade them to pay $500 per day for a two to five day course that gave me hands-on and the opportunity to talk directly to those who have expertise. I would also like the training to occur regionally.
You may be optimistic with those requirements - remember, we are based in Brisbane, Australia.
Quote:
I am used to programming with Visual Studio 6 or 4GL’s (Edify, Lotus Notes, Pivotal) that have thousands of users and books/examples, or an upgraded support tier – for an additional fee - to answer my questions no matter how trivial. This is not the case even with Microchip in the microcontroller world.
We have many forum users and several (about 24) thousand postings here, including a fair bit of sample code.
As for support - please let us know (via appropriate channels - not here) which of your technical-support case queries have not been adequately addressed.
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Mark Pappin - HI-TECH Software
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billb
Tester
Reged: Apr 24 2006
Posts: 5
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Hi Mark:
Quote:
You may be optimistic with those requirements - remember, we are based in Brisbane, Australia.
Yes, but you did mention the possibility of using certified trainers.
I have filled out my responses to your poll. However it varies and you do not state the length or type of training when asking for acceptable costs. For a five day course that includes all these tracks:
- basic C language
- advanced C
- differences between HI-TECH C and standard C
- specific microcontrollers
- accessing features of specific chips from C
and allows me to pick two or three tracks, I could persuade my employer to pay $2,000, travel (within the Western US), and room/board. Notebooks, demo boards, and chips might be required for each session.
You might also consider opportunities for people to gather and discuss items according to microcontroller manufacturer (Microsoft calls these sessions “Birds of a Feather”). A representative from Hi-Tech and the manufacturer should be present to facilitate and gain feedback.
I have taken online training from Pivotal that cost $700 and covered three days of group presentation and the ability to review the content for up to 1 year. I also received a manual before the course started.
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Bill Buxton
Developer
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